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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:51 am 
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Most Esteemed Researcher, Trustworthy Scholar, and Devote Audie Fan

Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:15 pm
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Location: Sacramento, California 95815
Hi Folks,
I have a little information regarding photo of Audie as a Major and then I have a couple of questions
that I hope someone "in the Know" could explain to me about Rank, Military Service, National Guard
Service and etc. First off, I remember reading a little blurb at a photo site, I think Vic Smizzone's on
Flickr that showed an "Artist's drawing" of Audie on the cover of it's magazine. In it, it showed Audie in an Officer's Uniform and the uniform was depicted with a "Major's Oak Leaf's insignia on it.
Underneath the picture of this magazine cover there was the statement that the artist was trying to
be militarily correct in showing Audie's last current rank, that of Major in the U.S. Army Reserve at
the time of his death. This magazine cover was published several year's after Audie's death and it
was done as a remembrance article for our veterans and it also was advertising a military air show
to take place in or around either Memorial Day or Veteran's Day in a Northern State. In the byline
of this Magazine Cover the statement was made "that there were no public photo's of Audie in his
uniform showing a Major's Oak Leaf insignia on it. In reviewing all the photo's they could find of
Audie in Uniform, all the one's they had found only showed 'Captain's Bar's. And it was I think the
Author's summation that this was probably the only depiction of Audie in Uniform with a Major's
Oak Leaves on the Uniform, unless the Murphy family may have had one in their private collection.
Now for my questions . After reviewing the statement of military service at this web site, I was
really sort of surprised that Audie became a Major as early as he did. For whatever reason, I did
not think he had attained the rank of Major until much later. That being said, I now think that there
should be some photo out there showing Audie in Uniform with Major Oak Leaf insignia on it.
And the real question is why the change from Texas National Guard to U.S. National Guard, what was the reasoning behind that move and then in 1966, withdrawing from the National Guard back to Army Reserve Status? Was it because of the Vietnam War status was really starting to ramp up?
By making this change was Audie setting himself up to be called up sooner or did it have the opposite effect and by going back to reserve status he was in effect saying he did not believe in
the Vietnam war and would be one of the last to be called up? Not knowing the order in which
the U.S. Government calls up it's military strength for purposes of going to war. Is it Reserve first
or National Guard first? You would think because my Dad, Uncle and husband were all in the military I would know the answer to this question but I don't and I was hoping someone on the
board or a member of this web site could be kind enough to explain the difference to me.
Thanks for your answers in advance. Shirley Jean.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:36 am 
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WOW, GREAT QUESTIONS! WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THAT MYSELF. AND WHAT YEARS HE GOT EACH OF HIS RANKS AFTER THE WAR.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:27 am 
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The website list gives the years, David. I did a search on the history of the Texas National Guard, but didn't find what I was looking for. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the changes made in Murphy's status were due to a change in the 36th's status around that time, but I haven't been able to locate it. Maybe someone who has a copy of Simpson's book could check to see if that was the source.

Ann

_________________
"He endured the shame of being sent home a living trophy to the blood and death of too many friends"
A Myth in Action: The Heroic Life of Audie Murphy
http://www.annjoiner.com


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:54 pm 
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Location: Sacramento, California 95815
Ann. Dumb ME. I have a copy of Col Simpson's book, American Soldier, I should look in there to see
if I can find the answer to my question about the change from Texas National Guard, to U.S. National
Guard, and then the change from National Guard to Army Reserve status. From the little blurb in your post, it is as if you are saying the first change was not really made by Major Murphy himself, it
was everyone in the Texas National Guard was impacted by this change from a state guard to a national guard, is that right? I guess the obvious other change between guard and Army reserve is,
one outfit guards only our borders whether it be state and or national and the Army reserve can be
called up to go off to a foreign country and fight a war. But I am really really curious as to which
changes Major Murphy voluntarily made, and which ones were made by a government ramping up to
go to war, and I am also really curious, in the event of a declared war, which soldiers go first. I realize the obvious, ie., any person on active duty in a branch of the military, but after a country
has dug down to the bottom of the barrel so to speak, then what comes next, National Guard or
reserve status of whatever branch, Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, etc. Then can a federal government
ever "nationalize" a State Guard, such as Texas, or California or any state/ and if so where would that
put any individual in a line to go off and fight a war? Maybe I should have paid attention to my
Social Studies classes in school, but I guess I am trying to ascertain the moves Major Murphy made
on his own, and more importantly, what kind of statement he was making by doing these things
regarding his reserve status. Most Men ususally understand this stuff better than us women, and
especially maybe some one like Stan, or Richard, or even Msgt. White, and I was hoping to maybe
get an explanation from one of them, in laymen's terms I could understand. Hope I haven't
created a mountain out of a mole hill. And really maybe this isn't the right place to even be asking
these sort of technical questions. But I am trying to understand the moves regarding Audie's military career at various times in his life. Thank you Ann for setting me off hopefully in the right
direction to answer some of my questions. Just my thoughts, Shirley Jean.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:45 pm 
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Location: Indian Trail, NC
Shirleyjean wrote:
Ann. Dumb ME. I have a copy of Col Simpson's book, American Soldier, I should look in there to see
if I can find the answer to my question about the change from Texas National Guard, to U.S. National
Guard, and then the change from National Guard to Army Reserve status. From the little blurb in your post, it is as if you are saying the first change was not really made by Major Murphy himself, it
was everyone in the Texas National Guard was impacted by this change from a state guard to a national guard, is that right? I guess the obvious other change between guard and Army reserve is,
one outfit guards only our borders whether it be state and or national and the Army reserve can be
called up to go off to a foreign country and fight a war. But I am really really curious as to which
changes Major Murphy voluntarily made, and which ones were made by a government ramping up to
go to war, and I am also really curious, in the event of a declared war, which soldiers go first. I realize the obvious, ie., any person on active duty in a branch of the military, but after a country
has dug down to the bottom of the barrel so to speak, then what comes next, National Guard or
reserve status of whatever branch, Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, etc. Then can a federal government
ever "nationalize" a State Guard, such as Texas, or California or any state/ and if so where would that
put any individual in a line to go off and fight a war? Maybe I should have paid attention to my
Social Studies classes in school, but I guess I am trying to ascertain the moves Major Murphy made
on his own, and more importantly, what kind of statement he was making by doing these things
regarding his reserve status. Most Men ususally understand this stuff better than us women, and
especially maybe some one like Stan, or Richard, or even Msgt. White, and I was hoping to maybe
get an explanation from one of them, in laymen's terms I could understand. Hope I haven't
created a mountain out of a mole hill. And really maybe this isn't the right place to even be asking
these sort of technical questions. But I am trying to understand the moves regarding Audie's military career at various times in his life. Thank you Ann for setting me off hopefully in the right
direction to answer some of my questions. Just my thoughts, Shirley Jean.



Shirley Jean:
Sorry I haven't answered this before, but it would take a while to get through it, anyway I will attempt to give you an abbreviated answer.
Here is the basics:
1) Federal Recognition entails a unit conducting basic proficiency testing, inventories of equipment, and personel, and establishing basic military goals and meeting them, i.e. training. In addition many inspections are conducted during that time.
It is very, very rare for a unit not be federally recongized. Most of the time it is more a formaility than anything else. If a unit does fail repeatedly, the unit could be disbanded.
The same applies to an Officer promotion. When one sees a promotion with Federally Recognition it basically means that the unit in which the person is serving as well as that Officer have meet those standards and goals as outlined to meet 'federal recognition.'
As to order of call up normally years ago it was Active, Reserve, Guard. Due to the nature of war now days and frequency of deployments that no longer is the rule although the Government does try to abide by it.
As to why Audie would move from National Guard to Reserve that is perhaps the easiest to explain. Most probably he was tired of traveling from California to Texas for Guard meetings and camps and therefore elected to transfer his status to the Reseve in order to facilitate finding a unit that he could locally participate in within the State of California. Perhaps as well he was very comfortable with the Texas 36th and felt it would be disloyal to move to a California Guard unit so rather than do that, he simply moved into the Reserve.
Also, sometimes (often) members of units move to another unit or type (Guard, Reserve) because the duty job/position (MOS/Billet) may not be availiable with a Guard or Reserve unit near their home. In order to make the move (transfer) they must work in the same MOS/Billet (job/position) so perhaps near Audie their was not a Guard unit that carried his MOS or Billet but there was a Reserve unit so he moved to the Reserve.
Hope this helps,

_________________
"I believe in all the men who stood up against the enemy, taking their beatings without whimper and their triumphs without boasting. The men who went and would go again to hell and back to preserve what our country thinks right and decent."


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:14 pm 
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Most Esteemed Researcher, Trustworthy Scholar, and Devote Audie Fan

Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:15 pm
Posts: 805
Location: Sacramento, California 95815
Hi Dave,
Thank you Very Very Much for answering A LOT of my question... There is a couple of issues
that I failed to bring up in my original question and I am hoping you can answer them also.
If one looks at the statement of service posted here on the AMRF web site it says in parentheses
(Due to withdrawl of Federal Recognition) right next to Audie's transfer from National Guard to
Army Reserves. This was done in 1966.. and was the last time anything was posted in his Military
Service Record at least on the AMRF Web Site... Now he had already been promoted to Major and
had already received Federal Recognition for that Rank for several years... Over the Seven year
requirement for time and grade... So my assumption is, the withdrawl of federal recognition was
towards the 36th T Patcher's division, and not necessarily directed towards Audie personally or his
rank of Major... Like maybe it was being disbanded or something... as a reason to switch from National Guard to Army Reserve ???? Which to me seems Kind of Really Really strange for the government to do that because 1966 was about the time the Vietnam war was just starting to heat
up and I would think the Government would WANT all the trained Men they could get their hands on..
Is there a way someone could find out if this switch was done by Audie personally, ie he had to request it in writing or rather this switch was done to everyone in the 36th ? And if Audie did
this switch on his own, Change to Reserve, what did that do to his chances of being called up
regarding the Vietnam War? Increase them or Decrease Them? I guess I am trying to get a sense
of what his way of thinking was during this time frame... in 1966 he would have been 40 or 41 years old.. Two kids 12 and 14, probably estranged from Pamela or about to be.. No longer under
contract to Universal (?) and I really do not think he believed in the Vietnam war, however he was
very very pro veterans and soldiering, and I think the draft was still in effect.. Not Yet an all
volunteer army, so the switch to Reserve kind of puzzles me... All of this was I assume under an
Inactive Status however the AMRF website does not clarify that point either... Dave, I respect your
opinions immensely so any light you could shed on this matter would be greatly welcomed.....
Sincerely, Shirley Jean...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:36 pm 
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Posts: 1695
Location: Indian Trail, NC
Shirleyjean wrote:
Hi Dave,
Thank you Very Very Much for answering A LOT of my question... There is a couple of issues
that I failed to bring up in my original question and I am hoping you can answer them also.
If one looks at the statement of service posted here on the AMRF web site it says in parentheses
(Due to withdrawl of Federal Recognition) right next to Audie's transfer from National Guard to
Army Reserves. This was done in 1966.. and was the last time anything was posted in his Military
Service Record at least on the AMRF Web Site... Now he had already been promoted to Major and
had already received Federal Recognition for that Rank for several years... Over the Seven year
requirement for time and grade... So my assumption is, the withdrawl of federal recognition was
towards the 36th T Patcher's division, and not necessarily directed towards Audie personally or his
rank of Major... Like maybe it was being disbanded or something... as a reason to switch from National Guard to Army Reserve ???? Which to me seems Kind of Really Really strange for the government to do that because 1966 was about the time the Vietnam war was just starting to heat
up and I would think the Government would WANT all the trained Men they could get their hands on..
Is there a way someone could find out if this switch was done by Audie personally, ie he had to request it in writing or rather this switch was done to everyone in the 36th ? And if Audie did
this switch on his own, Change to Reserve, what did that do to his chances of being called up
regarding the Vietnam War? Increase them or Decrease Them? I guess I am trying to get a sense
of what his way of thinking was during this time frame... in 1966 he would have been 40 or 41 years old.. Two kids 12 and 14, probably estranged from Pamela or about to be.. No longer under
contract to Universal (?) and I really do not think he believed in the Vietnam war, however he was
very very pro veterans and soldiering, and I think the draft was still in effect.. Not Yet an all
volunteer army, so the switch to Reserve kind of puzzles me... All of this was I assume under an
Inactive Status however the AMRF website does not clarify that point either... Dave, I respect your
opinions immensely so any light you could shed on this matter would be greatly welcomed.....
Sincerely, Shirley Jean...


I doubt there is any way to verify the reason for his change of status. I will tell you that the 36th had been working and training since the late 50's as part of the 45th Division. In other words the units were 'sort of' combines for whatever reason.
Audie's decision was certainly not a reflection of him but rather was probably predicated by personal reasons. Perhaps he had a new C.O. that he was not fond of, perhaps he wanted to be able to drill in a locale more accesible to him, or and most probably he wanted to sped up the process to have met the requirements for retirement. The Guard and Reserve work on points and in the Reserve is it much easier to earn those points (credits) towards retirement.
That said, the 36th was deactivated in 1968. The deactivation began in 1966 and perhaps Audie's Battalion was the one that was deactivated that year, and so he made a change in status.
In any case, as I said at this late venture there is no way of verifying as Audie would have been the only person to have known his true reasoning.
Lastly, it is sad that since Audie was killed at age 46, he was never able to draw a retirement check for his military service since as a member of the Guard/Reserve he would not have benn able to draw upon his retirement until age 60.
It would have however reverted to Pam and she would have been able to draw upon it at age 60 as his widow.
As to Vietnam I have never seen Audie's thoughts on it, or at least I can't recall having read anything, other than when he relected on it in his final speech in Montgomery, Alabama in 1968, and he devoted a paragraph or so in relflecting on the draft dodgers etc.
I would love to know how he would have felt about it though, and as patriotic as he was I feel that he would have been in support of the war.
Interesting to know also what he would have felt about the current one as well if he were alive today.
Hope this helps!

_________________
"I believe in all the men who stood up against the enemy, taking their beatings without whimper and their triumphs without boasting. The men who went and would go again to hell and back to preserve what our country thinks right and decent."


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:11 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:15 pm
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Location: Sacramento, California 95815
Dave, First off let me say thank you for answering my military questions, as I said in the e mail, I honestly do not think a military recruiter could have answered my questions any better.. As usual
you have come through with flying colors. I too wonder what Audie would have to say about today's
war... We all know he was very pro soldiering, and very pro veteran's... I personally think Audie would have been right up there on Capitol Hill, in their faces so to speak letting them know, for the
most part, our American Govt has let these soldier's down... And the American Public Down.. When
Audie Discussed the Korean War, he was all for sending a million men there and getting it done
quickly, and then bringing our men back home just as quickly, and getting on with the business of
living.... I think because that is how Audie viewed war.. Using it as a last resort, then throwing everything you have into it, in order to win it, and then just as quickly coming back home, back to
the life that was interrupted for war... With that in mind, I do not think he would like the way the
U.S. fights a war today.. Which is MUCH different than WWII. It's almost as if our government wants
a long detracted war, somewhere where they can test out all their newest and latest war toys... This
war should have been over and done with a long time ago.. And this latest breach of security, all those files released on the internet just goes to show you the brass has not a clue to how to fight
a war, let alone keep security, and how to win the war.. For all you mom's and dad's out there who
have your children involved in this war and for husbands and wives of soldiers I pray to God that
this war end's quickly and successfully.. Sorry for the Soapbox folks... Just my thoughts
Shirley Jean...


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:23 pm 
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Thanks Shirley Jean!
Oh and by the way I am a former USMC recruiter. Perhaps that is why I was sort of knowledgeable on the subject.
Thanks!

_________________
"I believe in all the men who stood up against the enemy, taking their beatings without whimper and their triumphs without boasting. The men who went and would go again to hell and back to preserve what our country thinks right and decent."


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:40 pm 
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Honestly Dave, I Had NO Clue on the Recruiter Part. I bet you made a great one. Thanks for the
insight.. Take Care Friend.. Shirley Jean. :D


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:16 pm 
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Shirley Jean,

You've got mail.

Ann

_________________
"He endured the shame of being sent home a living trophy to the blood and death of too many friends"
A Myth in Action: The Heroic Life of Audie Murphy
http://www.annjoiner.com


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